Episode 7 Transcript
[00:00:00] John Kiker: Welcome to giant stories, a podcast inspired by people and brands with meaningful stories to share. I’m John Kiker, your host and president of medium giant, a fully integrated creative agency in Dallas and Tulsa. While the tools we have at our disposal to create and share stories have never been more broad and varied.
[00:00:17] The fundamentals of great storytelling remain as transcendent as ever, despite the headwinds, our industry faces clients and brands will always covet companies that remain steadfast with a steady eye on culture and understanding of the business dynamics at hand. And a commitment to the fundamentals of what makes a great story.
[00:00:36] So speaking of great stories, I could not be more excited to welcome my good friend, Jackie and singer to giant stories to say that her work with organizations and individuals and teams is Transformational would be a pretty massive understatement as a bestselling author, a keynote speaker, executive coach, and a high performance team builder.
[00:00:57] She’s worked with Accenture, Ritz Carlton, [00:01:00] PNG, Starbucks, Nestle, US Bank, Omnicom. I probably left out 10 names that are on her website and probably 20 names that she can’t even tell you about. Cause she’s got some side of kind of crazy NDA going. Uh, but she has helped these organizations redefine how to approach leadership, team building.
[00:01:16] Uh, and really takes a positive psychology led framework. Her bestselling book spark brilliance shows us how to use the science based framework to transform team cohesiveness and performance by focusing on unique strengths and authentic conversations. Jackie also serves as an official member of the Forbes coaches council and is also a Harvard business review advisory council member.
[00:01:39] She attended Duke university. I still don’t like Christian Leitner, uh, for undergrad, and she has her master’s degree in human development and psychology from Harvard. She also happens to be one of the best people I know, so Jackie, thank you so much for joining us today. We’re really excited about this.
[00:01:54] Jackie Insinger: Thank you so much. If you don’t mind, you can just read that again. Um, I’ll take it in. [00:02:00]
[00:02:00] John Kiker: I’ll play it back on a loop for you. Don’t worry about that.
[00:02:03] Jackie Insinger: Talk about an affirmation. Thank you.
[00:02:05] John Kiker: Oh my gosh. No, we’re, we’re so happy to have you here. Um, so we always start off these, uh, these, these podcasts episodes, uh, for giant stories, asking our guests to tell the audience their story and your story and really how you came to, to, to do what you do is really unique.
[00:02:20] So I’d love to have you share that with our listeners.
[00:02:22] Jackie Insinger: Thank you. Yeah. So, um, I had the opportunity to study under a famous psychologist, Dr. Eleanor Duckworth, during my master’s at Harvard. And first day of class, we all walk in and we’re handed an identical journal. We make it to our seats. We’re not sure what’s going on, right?
[00:02:40] And she gets up front and she says, in addition to your coursework, every single night, I want you to look at the moon and either draw a picture of it, write a poem about it, or say something new about the moon every single night. I’m not a creative like you, right? I am very artistically challenged, [00:03:00] and I felt like I was set up for failure.
[00:03:02] So I was really irritated at this assignment, but I was determined to nail it in quantity. So right, 105 moons, here I come. At the end of the semester, our journals were collected. We show up to this last class in this enormous lecture hall. And the whole place is completely wallpapered with our journal entries.
[00:03:22] Right, like floor to ceiling, edge to edge. It’s like a kaleidoscope of moons in this enormous place. And we’re all walking around in awe, knowing something is going on here, but not quite sure what it was. And Dr. Duckworth gets up front and she says, you learned a lot from my class this semester, but if there’s one thing you take away, it’s this.
[00:03:42] In just three months, we found thousands of ways to see one single object that we all thought was seen in only one way. What I’m trying to teach you, she said, is the power of understanding somebody else’s understanding. And that was the [00:04:00] moment for me. That was where all the sparks went off, right? And I’ve spent the next 20 years since that day determined not just how to understand somebody else’s understanding, but then how do you honor it and then leverage it to spark brilliance in others?
[00:04:15] And that’s kind of that moment in my life. You know, we always have these series of moments that matter, I call it. And that was a moment that mattered, that set me on this trajectory to where I am now.
[00:04:26] John Kiker: So what’s interesting is after, like, you, you’ve had several jobs in, in, in different industries, but when you got into, when you got into consulting and you got into, to, to leadership development.
[00:04:38] Um, what are some of the things that, that really brought you, and we’ll talk about spark brilliance here in a little bit as a book and what your mission was, but like, how did you start out on that journey with working with individuals and teams? Like, well, what was that like for you?
[00:04:54] Jackie Insinger: So from that moment in, in grad school, there was like a period of time in between that kind of [00:05:00] set me on these, this series of realizations around, around these, um, How to create more meaningful and effective relationships, right?
[00:05:08] By building these bridges and simplifying the messiness of people dynamics. And what I learned very quickly from the research, cause as you know, I’m like a data nerd, is that when you work I’m surprised
[00:05:21] John Kiker: I haven’t heard a quote yet, actually, some sort of a statistic.
[00:05:25] Jackie Insinger: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it’s been a couple of minutes.
[00:05:26] Like, where’s, where’s the data? Where’s the data? Exactly. So one of the things you realize that when you work with a leader, And you can even make a small shift in the leader. Not only does it impact the layer below them, but also the layer below them. So in order to have like this really big, profound systemic cascade effect, that’s positive working with the leader is the most powerful way to do it.
[00:05:49] So I really started focusing on leaders. Cause how do you make a big impact in the world? How do you make a big impact on a company? And all the people that interact with the people at the company is when you work with the leaders. So. [00:06:00] That’s where I started focusing very early on, is how do we make these simple, actionable, profound shifts that don’t have to take a lot of time or energy when somebody knows how to do it, right?
[00:06:10] And that feels like, that’s my job. Telling you like, this is what works, this is what’s proven to work based on the data, based on testing this strategy, and then we’ll see this impact on the leader of the team in the company, and by default, all the other people you care about that you interact with.
[00:06:25] John Kiker: So let’s talk about, um, from a story perspective, transformations, because that’s part of what you’re in the business of doing is whether it’s helping a good leader become great or a great leader become exceptional or a team that’s dysfunctional, become more functional, talked about, talk about the story of transformation and sort of the foundational building blocks that you help put, help them put in place In order, whether it’s to foster better communication, more alignment, a more unified voice out amongst our organization.
[00:06:55] Talk about some of those building blocks that you helped them put in place.
[00:06:59] Jackie Insinger: [00:07:00] Yeah. So to go to some data, a lot of what we know is. What people need today, right? We’ve got four generations in the workplace, hybrid and remote environments, this crazy pace of change. We’re in AI, highest rates of burnout, lowest engagement scores.
[00:07:16] We’ve got all of these factors in place. And we’re so fortunate to have so much research and data that tell us what do people need to actually not just stay at their company because people don’t stay very long anymore, but actually thrive and want to show up and do their best work. So when we look at that data, so much of what we see is how people want to feel.
[00:07:38] At their company and specifically from their leader. So for instance, Microsoft work index, big study showed that 85 percent of people say the number one thing they want from their leader is authenticity. Big study by Forbes found that 66 percent of people overall in 76 percent of millennials will leave their job if they don’t feel valued by their leader, right?
[00:07:59] [00:08:00] Big study by Salesforce found that people who feel seen and heard by their leader are four times as motivated to do their best work. So we’ve got all of this data that shows us that. People stay and perform and are motivated based on how they feel, feeling valued, feel authentic connection, and feel seen and heard by their leader.
[00:08:17] Really profound stuff. Most people have no idea what that means, right? Mm hmm. You can be like, yeah, that totally makes sense, right? Like, yeah, that makes sense. But if I ask you, like, how does this one feel valued? How does this one feel valued? What does authentic connection mean to you? What does seen and heard look like to you?
[00:08:35] Most leaders are like that. I don’t know, actually. Right? So it’s really taking these concepts that we think we understand and breaking it down into something actionable. To really understand not just what it means, but what it means for you. What does it mean for your team members, and how do you actually create it?
[00:08:50] In the simplest way possible. So, for instance, as you know very well from working with me for many, many years, over a decade, right? [00:09:00] Like that is, um, the platinum rule, which is a quick foundational shift. That’s a mindset shift. That’s kind of threaded throughout all the work that I do with, with leaders and teams, and that starts with, you know, we all know the golden rule.
[00:09:14] Treat others the way we wish to be treated. It works well in large societies as like a concept of really what not to do. What’s off limits, but in real relationships, it doesn’t work because we know each other very well. And I know that the way that you want feedback is probably not the way I want feedback.
[00:09:32] The way that you want support is probably not the way I want support, right? We’re very different in how we’re wired. And so making the assumption from the best of intentions that to give you feedback the way I want it, to give you support and help the way I want it. It’s going to backfire and studies show now 76 percent of people will leave if they don’t feel it the way they need it.
[00:09:53] So it’s shifting the mindset to the platinum rule, which is treat others the way they wish to be treated is the number one [00:10:00] way to start to create those meaningful and effective relationships. So we have to figure out how do you want feedback? How do you want support when you feel stuck? What would be most helpful to you right now?
[00:10:10] Right. And switching to that.
[00:10:12] John Kiker: So if you’re thinking about it from a story perspective, it’s like. We’re, we’re, we’re transitioning from like, let’s say one novel that’s got one storyline for, you know, I’m taking me back to my kid years and probably yours too. If you’ll choose your own adventure books, there’s a, there’s a base narrative, but depending on who you’re talking to and who the reader is and who the audience is, how you’re going to connect with them in an authentic way is, is totally different.
[00:10:36] But the trick is you never want to lose your sense of who you are as an individual and how you are, but how do, how do you get received by somebody in their. Um, through through their filter and how they see the world and how they, you know, whether it’s a, uh, words that that they interpret a certain way or, uh, an emotional approach that they interpret a certain way.
[00:10:56] It’s a, it’s a very [00:11:00] multifaceted two way conversation from a storytelling perspective, isn’t it?
[00:11:03] Jackie Insinger: Completely. It’s an unlimited storytelling, just like the moon, right? There’s an unlimited amount of moons. And we all have our own perspective. And a moon is not emotionally charged, right? You don’t have, like, your experiences, and all of your emotions, and all of these things that color it and add this real, like, Um, like a powerful energy to something based on our, our past experiences that we bring to, to a situation.
[00:11:29] And so you look at a series of events or a series of, um, facts that add up to a situation and we all have a different story based on the same set of facts. Based on what we bring to it, what’s the color we bring, what’s our own experiences and our emotional and whether it’s from childhood, from previous bosses, from how we’re wired, like we all have our own story of the same set of facts and knowing that and being able to, uh, to show up to a set of facts, knowing that we all have a different story from the same [00:12:00] thing really opens up how we address people and how we interact with people.
[00:12:04] John Kiker: Well, and it also gets into. What a lot of organizations, um, some probably less now than, than even a couple of years ago. But what a lot of organizations continue to do to really embrace the idea of what DEI was intended to do was like, look, we are bringing in people with more, especially for a creative organization.
[00:12:24] When you’re bringing people in from more backgrounds who have more different life experiences, different perspectives, it’s one thing to get them in there, but it’s also to your point, another entirely, another proposition to make them feel seen. And heard and respected and actually integrated. Into the story of that organization, right?
[00:12:42] Jackie Insinger: Completely. And, you know, I, I, you know, go down to the nuance of that, which is cognitive diversity, which is the inclusion of people with different perspectives, different ways of seeing things, different skill sets, different strengths, um, different moons, right? It all goes back to the, that, you know, we all have this unique lens through which we see the world and [00:13:00] big studies by Harvard Business Review show that teams that have higher cognitive diversity and leverage it perform over 100 percent better.
[00:13:08] Then teams that share similar perspectives. So as the leader, it’s your job to pull out and honor and leverage all of these different viewpoints. And it doesn’t mean like you can look at that as like, Oh, my gosh, I’d get stuck, right? It’s all these different things. And you can’t get consensus with all these different things.
[00:13:25] It’s not about consensus. It’s about Having this rich, diverse room of different lenses to pull from to make better decisions, greater innovation, bigger outputs, and, you know, better profits when you do that.
[00:13:38] John Kiker: Yeah, for sure. Um, I want to talk about leadership specifically. So you talked about authenticity is, you know, something that, uh, companies and employees, uh, crave.
[00:13:47] And if they don’t get that, then they’re, they’re much likely they’re, they’re, they’re likely to look elsewhere for it. Um, you talk about empathy and, and, and, and the platinum rule, what are other key qualities of, of leadership? The modern leader, um, based on your research that [00:14:00] are, that are critical.
[00:14:01] Jackie Insinger: Yeah.
[00:14:02] Um, well, huge is being able to adapt and pivot and see opportunity through challenges that, um, we are in, uh, have you heard the term VUCA?
[00:14:13] John Kiker: Yes. Yes. Volatility, uncertainty. Complexity and ambiguity somewhere around there. There you go.
[00:14:21] Jackie Insinger: Good job. So VUCA is something that I focus on a lot right now. We, um, VUCA used to be a term in the military, right?
[00:14:28] We’re going through this VUCA period. It’s volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous. We need to hunker down to get through this time. Right. And now VUCA is our new normal, right? We are in. A VUCA period. And VUCA is kind of, I think, where we’re staying. This is kind of our new for good, right? This volatile, uncertain, complex, and ambiguous.
[00:14:49] The pace of change that we’re in is so fast. There’s a lot of unknowns. Enter AI. Enter all of these different things going on in the world. We just know Change in this [00:15:00] pace of change is constant. Now, this is our new normal, and we have to be able to live in that space and see opportunity in this place of volatility, uncertainty, complexity, and ambiguity as a leader.
[00:15:12] And one of the things that’s a little controversial, I think that I believe is I don’t really believe in change management. Um, When you look at, this is how I look at it, here’s a visual for you, here’s a little bit of a story,
[00:15:24] John Kiker: visual.
[00:15:26] Jackie Insinger: So as the leader, you’re the captain of your ship, and you’re on your ship, and you see a big wave coming.
[00:15:32] And this is how we traditionally lead in change, is here’s this wave. Alright, here’s this big wave coming, let’s prepare. Let’s call and affirm, how are we going to prepare for this wave? Do we have the right people? Are we in the right position? Do we, you know, what’s the direction of the wind? Are we standing in the right places?
[00:15:48] Okay, we’re ready. Here comes the wave. We’re a little bit wet. Things are a little bit damaged, but we got through it. All right, team, we got through the wave. Here’s another wave. Let’s prepare for the wave, right? Are we in the right position? [00:16:00] What’s the direction of the wind? Let’s get ready. We hunker down.
[00:16:02] It is exhausting, right? You’re soaking wet at this point. You’re exhausted. You’re burned out. Your team’s like, we got through it. High five. What’s the next one? Right? This is not sustainable. Because the waves keep coming and coming and coming. It didn’t used to be like that. Right. It used to be maybe every year, every couple years, here’s this wave, we get change management in place.
[00:16:26] We can’t manage through change anymore because change is our new normal. So the way that I look at this is now like elevate to a 30, 000 foot view and look down. It’s just wavy water. That’s all it is. It’s not the series of ways, we’re on wavy water. So do we have the right boat? Do we have the right people on the right positions in the boat?
[00:16:45] Do we have the right equipment on the boat? Do we have the right gear? Right, if you build the right boat with the right technology, the right stuff on board, then it’s just wavy water. And shifting the mindset to the team of, we’re on wavy water, we’re not exactly sure what [00:17:00] it’s going to look like, but we know we have the right people in the right place and the right resources to get through it, and we’re going to figure it out.
[00:17:06] Right. And having that mindset shift of seeing opportunity, building trust and faith with the team to say, we’ve got this, right. We don’t know what it’s going to look like yet, but I know that we’ve got the right people in the right place in the right resources that will figure it out. And that changes everything.
[00:17:23] John Kiker: That there’s something to be said for this, this nuance of like, okay, when is the next big wave coming versus the assumption of like, Hey, to your point, it’s, it’s wavy water. There’s always going to be the next challenge around. It’s like, don’t worry about what that is. Just know that we’re equipped as a team from, like you said, whether it’s an infrastructure perspective or an alignment perspective and understanding of, um, actually, this is interesting.
[00:17:47] So when, when, you know, things get thick, I’ll use the, uh, the PG, this is a PG podcast today. So when things get thick, um, talk about the dynamics within that team that have to be true in order to [00:18:00] manage through. Wave after wave after wave. Like what is the consistent thing that those teams have?
[00:18:06] Jackie Insinger: Um, number one, far and away, psychological safety.
[00:18:11] So psychological safety, go ahead. You’re about to say something. I was
[00:18:14] John Kiker: going to say, I want you to define that for our listeners, because a lot of people have different definitions of that.
[00:18:19] Jackie Insinger: So I’ll tell you how I define it and how it’s been defined in the studies. A lot of people know the word. They’re like, Oh, that’s a buzzword or that’s from a Ted talk, but they don’t really know what it means.
[00:18:28] Right. Right. So psychological safety is the ability to say, I don’t know. I messed up or made a mistake. Or, I don’t agree with you, or here’s a new idea, without fear of shame or judgment. That’s the key piece, without fear of shame or judgment. Truly showing up as yourself, with your ideas, being able to own mistakes, without fear of shame or judgment.
[00:18:50] Google did a big study called Project Aristotle, where they were trying to figure out what are the number one factors for a high performing team. And they studied like, I might get this number wrong, but it’s like 200 teams, almost [00:19:00] 200 factors over about two years. It was a large, large study. They assumed it was going to be their superstars.
[00:19:05] Google Like, who are the, our superstars would make our best teams, not even in the top five. What they found was far and away, the number one factor for high performing team is psychological safety. The way I look at psychological safety is a little bit different because some people look at it as like another thing we have to worry about.
[00:19:24] Another thing we have to be careful about or tiptoe about and like wrapping people in bubble wrap. I don’t see it that way at all. The way I look at psychological safety. Is it’s a vibe. It’s a vibe that you as the leader can create on your team where people can show up and be their absolute best authentic selves.
[00:19:43] And when you do, when you have this vibe, the flip side is you’re encouraging courage and you need courage for innovation. You need courage to get to better outcomes. You need courage to recover from mistakes. Quickly and effectively. So [00:20:00] everybody’s learning from them, right? When you have psychological safety, which is the vibe you’re, you’re encouraging courage, which creates awesome, innovative outcomes.
[00:20:10] John Kiker: So you’ve had the privilege of working with companies across a variety of categories and whether, you know, whether it’s a company you worked with or a company that you’ve admired, talk about some, some examples of, of companies and company cultures that. You think are ready to withstand that wavy water have demonstrated that, that they, that they do it on a pretty, pretty consistent basis.
[00:20:33] Jackie Insinger: I think the seam across the companies, first of all, the leaders, it always begins with them. And you, I know you repeat that all the time. Like it begins with us. It begins with you as the leader, you set the tone. So they all across the board are transparent. They show vulnerability. They own and share their own mistakes and what they learned from them.
[00:20:55] Right? And showing, um, that [00:21:00] openness and encouraging team members when they do make mistakes that it’s okay, let’s share it. What can we learn from this? How do we recover quickly so that everybody’s learning and growing so everybody doesn’t have to make their own series of mistakes? Um, that’s a really big way to model that from, um, a leader’s perspective to create that psych safety in, on the psychological safety, sorry, psych safety is the same thing on the team.
[00:21:26] John Kiker: Talk about this. I think maybe sometimes it’s a, it’s a conflation or it’s a tension. I’m not exactly sure between this idea of vulnerability and transparency. Like transparency for organizations is obviously really important, but it doesn’t like a, if you’re honest, obviously you’re, you’re putting yourself out there in a more vulnerable way.
[00:21:48] But I think some organizations, even some, some leaders sometimes, Misinterpret what transparency really means because some people want to be hey, I’m going to be transparent and I’m just going to spill my guts Okay. Well, is that the [00:22:00] most productive way to give people the information that they probably need to know like talk about that?
[00:22:05] Sort of tension between those two things.
[00:22:07] Jackie Insinger: That’s a great. That’s a really great point and you’re right. It is a really fine line and You don’t want to instill fear by, you know, as a leader, you have privilege to certain information that probably could cause a lot of anxiety or unsettled disruption in a company or in a team.
[00:22:25] So you have to filter through that because how your team feels is everything, right? So being transparent, so they trust you. And making sure that you keep that, um, optimism outlook when that is there, right, is really, really key. So it’s like this, I call this Ted Lasso leadership, right, like this really, um, magical intersection where authenticity and positivity meet, right?
[00:22:54] So being able to be authentic and sharing like, yeah, this is a really tough time. [00:23:00] Right. We all know that X, Y, Z, or we just went through a round of layoffs. And we know that’s really hard for all of us. Um, and for the, those that are left to be sitting in this space. And there’s a lot of fear that comes through and I want to be able to be here for you to answer questions, to support you through this as best we can and make sure that we stay strong and cohesive as a team, and I believe that we’re all going to figure this out and it’s going to be a process and I don’t have the answer yet, but we’re going to work through this and I’m going to share it with you as we go, right?
[00:23:27] Like somehow like instilling that. That intersection, right? Authenticity and positivity. Is so key to leadership today when there’s so much unknown.
[00:23:37] John Kiker: Well, and there, there are so many examples of blind optimism or just naivety, head in the sand optimism. And it’s funny how many memos that are leaked from.
[00:23:49] from companies, whether it’s a email from a CEO about the state of things where you can tell that they’re just whistling past the graveyard when they’re when they’re talking to their employees [00:24:00] and team members about about what’s going on. And those are the things that go viral in a really bad way, whether it shows up.
[00:24:06] Um, on, uh, Glassdoor about how a company treats their employees or even sometimes it makes it to papers and makes it to the street and all of a sudden investors get antsy or they misinterpret that and you’re, and you’re really, you know, as a somebody who, who tries to be optimistic but does it in a very blind, naive way, you’re really doing a lot of damage to your company.
[00:24:25] Jackie Insinger: Right. Cause there’s no trust.
[00:24:27] John Kiker: Right.
[00:24:27] Jackie Insinger: Right. And so that’s where we talk about a lot this idea of practical optimism versus irrational optimism or toxic positivity, which we hear about today. Right. So that is not serving as leaders. You do not have the luxury of denial. Nobody is the luxury of denial. And so you have to have that trust.
[00:24:46] So I call it practical optimism. Which is looking at reality. Let’s really look at the thing, right? And then look toward the future, thinking, what are some possibilities from this challenge? What are some solutions in this situation, right? And coming back to that belief, do we have the right [00:25:00] people in the right spots to get to the right outcome, whatever that looks like.
[00:25:05] So I think that’s the, the looking at reality and then opening up to potential solutions.
[00:25:12] John Kiker: So on a continuing on this idea of, of optimism, this is a more grounded conversation. I know that a lot of times you’d like to start off meetings with, uh, with your teams or with the companies you work with and you encourage them to do the same about what’s good.
[00:25:29] What’s a, what’s a quick win. Talk about the psychology of talking about even the most minute positive, uh, step or, or accomplishment that a team has before they, before you get into a broader conversation, whether it’s going to be tough, good, whatever.
[00:25:42] Jackie Insinger: Yeah. So there’s, um, there’s something called a power lead.
[00:25:45] Um, it’s, it, there’s a lot of research around this from, uh, Michelle Galen, who’s a big positive psychology researcher that how you start in interaction is directly correlated to how it ends. So when you start in an open mindset and a positive mindset, you’re moving into [00:26:00] that prefrontal cortex of your brain that is open where you can get those connections, where you can see the positives and solution and rational thinking rather than being in a stressed out place where you don’t have access to that.
[00:26:10] So we want to set the tone where people are leaning in, where they’re open, and in that creative thinking place in their brain. So that’s a big part of it. So, positive start equals a positive end in a good portion of the time. That’s number one. Number two is when you’re thinking of a win and talking about wins, it elicits dopamine.
[00:26:31] And that’s that hit, that’s that feel good hormone. And what happens is, the more series of these small wins that you can recognize, the more dopamine release, which creates a dopamine loop, then the anticipation of something positive becomes a hit in itself. Right? So you start releasing dopamine in anticipation.
[00:26:50] of another positive. So you create this loop and that’s where momentum comes from. When you only look at the good as like this big finish line, as the [00:27:00] touchdown, right? Then it’s really hard to see it at all. There’s something called the goal gradient effect. I’m throwing out so many things right now. Tell me if this is too much.
[00:27:07] Just
[00:27:08] John Kiker: keep it rolling.
[00:27:09] Jackie Insinger: Okay. Keep it rolling. The goal gradient effect is the closer you are to the finish line, the faster you run. And that’s something when you think about in all areas of our lives, right? When you see the finish line, it’s like, Oh, I’m almost there. And you pick up your pace. You get that motivation.
[00:27:23] You get that momentum back. If you don’t see the finish line, it is so daunting. It’s like you’re trudging through. I’m not making progress and progress is the top indicator of happiness and motivation. If you don’t feel like you’re making progress, it’s really hard to be happy or find motivation. So what we want to do as leaders is create finish lines.
[00:27:44] John Kiker: Yup.
[00:27:45] Jackie Insinger: We want to create these smaller finish lines so people see the win, so they feel the win, so they get that hit and feel like, oh, I am making progress. Maybe I didn’t feel that, right? Because bad is so much stronger than good. In all areas of our lives, we have this negativity bias in our brain, so bad is always [00:28:00] stronger than good.
[00:28:00] Some situations, almost 50 times stronger, right? So when you look at bad health. Always stronger than good health, in our mind, right? That one bad argument you got in with your spouse or partner? So much more weight carried on that than all the nice moments you had all week. The time you lost it on your kids in an argument?
[00:28:20] So much stronger than all the good parenting moments, right? So, go into a performance review. The one negative thing that you hear is what spins like a broken record in your mind over all the good ones that you heard. So, our brain really sticks to the negative that we don’t often see the wins. We don’t often see the progress.
[00:28:37] It’s like, oh, God, finish that. Moving on to the next. Where’s the goalpost? Where’s the goalpost? That if we don’t stop and pause and reflect on those, we don’t notice them a good majority of the time. So, bringing those up, focusing on them, hearing them, you’re like, Actually. Did do something. Our team is making progress.
[00:28:53] We are doing okay. And that builds the momentum, the cohesion on a team, right? To start hitting those [00:29:00] goalposts, to start going through those finish lines because you see them.
[00:29:02] John Kiker: And that’s muscle memory that you can create, right? It’s just, it’s, it’s all about building the habit of doing that on a consistent basis.
[00:29:08] Jackie Insinger: Completely. Again, begins with you as the leader, bringing it in to regular norms within the team.
[00:29:14] John Kiker: Yeah, absolutely. Um, so. Your consulting career was, let’s just go pre pandemic, post pandemic. In the sense of human connection in a much more virtual world, especially amongst teams and more, um, uh, scattered organizations in terms of how employee makeup, what’s been the biggest challenge from your perspective on getting teams to sort of.
[00:29:42] You know, with that, that at one point, hopefully embrace a lot more impressed in person presence to a totally virtual to now off some, some people are in office four or five days a week, summer hybrid. How have you managed through that and how have you guided organizations through that transition? [00:30:00]
[00:30:00] Jackie Insinger: That’s a great question.
[00:30:01] I think one of the biggest things I saw when COVID happened and everybody had to go virtual was a lot of leaders were so lost on how do you connect? And there’s something I call culture theater, right? Where there’s this like cover up, right? We’re in person. We had kombucha on tap and taco Tuesdays and foosball tables, and people think it’s a good culture because that’s what they’re promoting.
[00:30:27] When that stuff was ripped away, they realized that the real, the, the real depth of culture was not there. That connection was not there. And all of these band aids on top of this culture theater when it’s taken away. People were exposed for not having the real culture and people were leaving and these leaders all of a sudden realized like what do I do?
[00:30:49] So the good that came out of that was You had to create it you had to create that connection people had to feel Significant they had to feel like they brought value [00:31:00] and they were seen for who they are not just checking a box Right and that that’s a lot of work Um, but the rewards for that the roi is huge, right?
[00:31:08] and so that was a really amazing thing to see was the leaders who were raising their hand saying like I need to do this work. Um, so that was a huge great great output of that You I think what we learn too is the magic happens in the moments not in the meetings and when you’re virtual It’s just meetings, right?
[00:31:28] You don’t have those moments. So how do you create those moments in a virtual environment where you can have that magic, where you have those conversations, where you are connecting, walking to the bathroom or going after the meeting or being like, Oh, I’m walking in my car. You too. Let’s just talk like those little moments.
[00:31:43] And that’s where ideas come from. That’s where connection comes from. That’s where that personal piece comes
[00:31:47] John Kiker: in
[00:31:48] Jackie Insinger: and you, and it, it’s not natural in a hybrid environment. And so how do we create those moments? How do we create that connection? That’s a little more intentional and a little more deliberate when [00:32:00] you’re, when you’re remote.
[00:32:01] I
[00:32:02] John Kiker: think we’re all still trying to figure that out. I mean, I’m as somebody who historically always enjoyed the chance to walk the halls and, um, you know, Ask somebody how they were doing and actually mean it and actually want to listen to it. It’s it’s still weird to me to pop in on teams and just, you know, chat somebody up and see how they’re doing.
[00:32:20] So I think we’re still still trying to find ways to be more authentic about that. Um, I want to talk about spark brilliance. And, you know, this was one of the I don’t know if it’s a culmination, but it was a very important part of your career, gathering all of your learnings and seeing this opportunity to aggregate them in a way.
[00:32:38] What’s been the biggest impact that you’ve seen, uh, working through the spark brilliance program and the organizations and the people that you’ve worked with? What’s been most satisfying to you?
[00:32:48] Jackie Insinger: Uh, what’s been most satisfying to me, I think is, as you know, I’ve been working with leaders for so long. And.[00:33:00]
[00:33:00] Leaders are so overwhelmed, they don’t have time, and all of these types of programs and training add stress, because it’s another thing you have to do, it’s another thing you have to figure out. And so, part of, you know, the intent in designing this program was in a way that doesn’t have to take up time for the leader, but creates a big outcome where it doesn’t have to feel hard.
[00:33:22] And um, so taking that pressure and additional stress off of the leader and giving them the tools in a way that Doesn’t add stress that creates a very quick positive response to fuel that leader to want to do more because they see it and it validates and it becomes a cycle that Builds and seeing that actually work in that way where the leaders instead of adding stress feel empowered and feel um Really positive and they’re seeing this change and more cohesion in their team is huge to me because it’s like and then as you know Measuring results and seeing the impact that it has is [00:34:00] is awesome
[00:34:01] John Kiker: Well, and as a researcher you always want something quantifiable, right?
[00:34:04] It’s not oh, yeah, not a gut feel but so, all right last question Leadership over the next five years in this world of VUCA that’s We’re only going to get more VUCA ish, I think, if we’re all being honest with ourselves. What’s going to be the theme of leadership over the next five years for you?
[00:34:23] Jackie Insinger: To me, it’s really about pivoting through disruption.
[00:34:28] It’s about leading through these tornadoes of change that we’re living in right now with all of these things hitting people in different ways. It’s a lot about generational changes. We’ve got four generations active right now. 20 by end of 2025, 30 percent of the workforce is going to be Gen Z. The majority of the workforce will be Gen Z and millennials.
[00:34:52] A lot of the high level leaders will be Gen X. And how do we create that connection instead of this? Like, [00:35:00] I don’t know how to do this. This is like this, this is demanding here. This is that it’s, we have to be able to adapt as leaders to the new generations. They will not adapt to us. We have to adapt to them.
[00:35:12] All of this is about being able to pivot and amazing leaders, the highest level, most seasoned leaders at these huge organizations I get to work with. Exceptional leaders. What worked. five years ago isn’t going to work next year. So it’s just up leveling your skill set and your mindset. It’s not about redoing.
[00:35:35] It’s not that you’re not an effective, amazing leader. It’s taking a great leader, helping them become an extraordinary leader for all of these changes that are going on right now. So it’s not undoing. It’s not this very specific type. It’s that we have to shift. With the world as it’s changing to keep up.
[00:35:54] So we’re fit for future leaders instead of trying to lead how we effectively led a few years ago, because it doesn’t work anymore. [00:36:00]
[00:36:00] John Kiker: Totally agree. Thank you. Um, may everybody, uh, from an organizational leadership perspective, be on that train, because I think, uh, It’s only going to get more challenging than the problems we think we might have.
[00:36:14] I think we probably only know 20 percent of what’s really coming. So having those qualities in it and our organizations will be critical. Jackie, my friend, this has been amazing. Thank you so much for your time. Uh, again, for, for all of our listeners out there, if you haven’t read spark brilliance, do yourself a favor.
[00:36:30] It’s a, it’s a very easy, very practical reading.
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