Episode 10 Transcript
John Kiker: [00:00:00] So welcome to giant stories, a podcast inspired by people and brands with meaningful stories to share. I’m John Kiker, your host and president of medium giant. A fully integrated creative agency in Dallas and Tulsa. While the tools we have at our disposal to create and share stories have never been more broad and varied, the fundamentals of great storytelling remain as transcendent as ever.
Despite the headwinds our industry faces, clients and brands will always covet companies that remain steadfast with a steady eye on culture, an understanding of the business dynamics at hand, and a commitment to the fundamentals of what makes a great story. Okay guys, so today’s episode was a lot of fun.
I had the chance to Give our listeners and viewers a little bit of a glimpse into how medium giant makes the proverbial sausage. So we were joined by Sean Krugel, our executive creative director and Lizzie Bakus, our VP of strategy at medium giant. This is a great chance to hear our dynamic duo really dive deep into, uh, not just their history and how they, how they came into the roles that they did, which I think are both fascinating, but [00:01:00] also how we as an agency view storytelling from a, from a frameworks perspective, what makes for a good story, uh, all the way down into Understanding, you know, brand authenticity and you can, you know, be, be able to call a little bit of BS on brands when they’re not telling a good story.
We talk about AI and how we embrace it in some cases, how we’re not quite, um, ready to, to embrace it full scale. And I think for the right reasons, we talk a lot about this idea of reach and resonance. We talk about where brands are going, uh, the, the idea of creating brand ecosystems to tell stories. And there’s a lot of really rich discussion and I’m, I’m excited for everybody to hear.
To very important people at our agency talk about how we bring stories to life. So I hope you guys enjoy the listen
So today’s special holiday episode, although only Lizzie got the memo on the holiday part Is about giving our viewers and listeners a little bit of a glimpse inside our agency and how we make the sausage a little bit How about that? [00:02:00] So we’re gonna dive into storytelling mg style with Sean Krugel our executive creative director and Lizzie Bakas our VP of strategy Sean’s been an important part of ENGIE’s creative efforts for over a decade.
Before that, he spent several years in Chicago with Leo Burnett and Kramer Crassell, just to name a couple. He’s the driving force behind our creative efforts, and he’s also got a very unique background for a creative leader. Lizzie joined us just over a year ago and has been just an amazing leader for our strategy team.
While her roots are in research and brand strategy, she also has experience across the spectrum, having most recently led Dish Network’s internal advertising team, focusing on, uh, on the blend of strategy, creativity, and performance. She’s a critical thinker, a magic maker, and another driving force behind how we do what we do.
How’d I do on that? Do you guys like that? Working for that? What a can that?
Lizzy Bakhaus: Can I take you everywhere with me?
John Kiker: Yeah.
Shawn Kruggel: It’s better than I wrote.
John Kiker: Take that home to your significant other and say, here, here’s what I do. Here’s what I do.
Lizzy Bakhaus: They have no idea.
John Kiker: No, no, my, my mother, God bless her, still doesn’t know what I do.
Um, anyway, thank you guys so [00:03:00] much for, for joining us. Thanks for having us. To give, uh, the, to give our listeners and viewers a little bit of glimpse into how, into how we do this. Um, so. First, uh, we always ask our guests to share a little bit of, uh, their story on how they got here. So, Lizzie, I will start with you.
Tell us your story.
Lizzy Bakhaus: Perfect. Um, well, I actually started in sports advertising, so action sports. I was actually responsible for setting up sponsorships for key athletes or interesting people in different markets, and it got me really excited about the idea of brand in general. So I actually started in digital advertising sales.
Moved into brand partnerships, um, and then actually became a brand strategist at a shop in Denver called Brand Juice. I was there for five years and moved up the ranks until, um, I actually started working at an agency that was much more focused in consumer packaged goods. So everything from packaging and how things sit on the shelf and all of the things that They just tell stories, don’t they?
Oh, they sure do. [00:04:00] They sure do. And they have to tell, they have to tell the stories. fast. Uh, so get that shelf stopping power was something we always worked on and focused on. Uh, and then of course, went to dish like you said, and spent several years there. It was amazing being on the client side to see just the vast network of marketers that are really structured to bring a single brand or portfolio brands, stories to life.
It’s amazing the magnitude when you’re in house. Uh, and then obviously I’ve been here, so it’s been a real blast.
John Kiker: Uh, so Sean, in your, um, let’s call it South Park non holiday outfit, thank you for, thank you for, for joining us today.
Shawn Kruggel: It’s all the colors, you know, when you get all the colors, it makes black.
Yeah, 100%. There is a fight. One or the other. So, so give us your story. Okay, so, uh, I’ll tell you a funny story. When I was in college, I went to the University of Kansas. And the, I was in the journalism school and the, the, the building was all a flutter because the different companies would come in and talk to students about opportunities.
And this, one of the ones that [00:05:00] came in was Leo Burnett and I could not have cared less. I was so quick to go to the Bunk Rock bar that night and people were very jazzed about this. Well, long story short, quickly I ended up in Chicago. And I was, I didn’t have a job. I kind of moved up there after college, I mean, like, off
John Kiker: here.
Because it sounded like a good idea. Oh, right. I’ll
Shawn Kruggel: figure this out. But I mean, at least I’ll be in a city that’s cool. The job part can come, can come second. I, my first job there, which is kind of unrelated, but I worked for a magazine called Punk Planet. And, uh, I figured out not long after that, that I need a job that pays the bills.
So how could I parlay this kind of Nothing against Punk Planet. No, nothing against Punk Planet. It was a pretty well known, uh, magazine at the time. But Um, I ended up getting a job as the assistant to the strategy department at Kramer Crassel. Um, so which was, and still is maybe one of the only independent owned ad agencies there is, and maybe the only one.
In Chicago. In Chicago. Um, and I was basically the You know, learning brand strategy. It’d be high dive as well, now that I think about it, but yeah. [00:06:00] But yeah, at the time, until I was working for, I was working at Corona, I was working on Heinz, I was working on smart ones, but what I loved about it is that I would have, I’d get shipped out to do these ethnographies.
With moms in their homes, like, getting their kids ready for breakfast to figure out how they used orange juice or things like that. So I really love that aspect of it, but I was, you know, basically, like Dizzy said, in kind of her career, moved my way up the ranks in the brand strategy department. Ended up going to work at Leo Burnett after that, and then after some time moved back home to work at a small shop that then got acquired by the agency that you now run.
John Kiker: Wow. So, talk about your journey from strategy to creative.
Shawn Kruggel: So, the interesting thing is the people, I, I was a strategist for many years, but I always gravitated to the kind of creative storytelling that brands have to do to not first of all inspire the creative team and then the creative team that inspires the people that they want to um, buy or sell whatever the particular brand is, so I always gravitated to that side when I started to see that there were [00:07:00] quant strategists and, and, and Uh, consumer focused strategists, consumer psychology focused strategists.
There were kind of the creative strategists that kind of worked a little bit more closely with the creative team. And I gravitated to those creative kind of members and wrote briefs accordingly. Um, and, and kind of eventually Started to write concepts alongside the, the, the strategies, which creative teams of course hate.
Right. Uh, and, and finally, um, someone, that person might have been you said, I think, I think you’ve had enough of that. Maybe you should just do what you’re, what heaven is calling
Lizzy Bakhaus: you to do. It’s, it’s crazy because I had kind of the opposite. I started in design and moved into brand strategy.
John Kiker: Yeah, I mean basically with you, I just wanted you to stop grading your own homework.
This strategy is great, I’ll tell you why. Since I came up with this awesome idea. I had a creative idea, so let me back into this.
Shawn Kruggel: So now I’m getting criticized a lot more, which is great.
John Kiker: By me. Yeah, you’re just being kept honest. No, that’s awesome. So, obviously as an agency, we’ve really made a big bet on [00:08:00] storytelling for many reasons, whether it’s our heritage, which is a Part of the Dallas News Corporation or something that we see out in the world that there is a dearth of in terms of good stories, connected stories.
So you guys were, um, working with me side by side as we really dove into storytelling and the components of it. And um, I think a lot of agencies are going to tell you, um, and for our listeners, this is a totally, totally self promoting episode. So just. Beware, Ed, I’m, um, you know, this is, um, you know, the, I think every agency would tell you that they tell stories on behalf of their clients.
But there’s, you know, but there’s unique components to what we believe makes a good story. So, talk about some of that fun foundational work that we started doing, Lizzie.
Lizzy Bakhaus: Yeah, of course. Uh, I think that fundamentally marketing is about building and strengthening relationships with your customers. And when you think about relationships, you, you know that they take hard work.
So in order for a relationship to be worth putting in the effort for, there has to be something for you. And I think one of the foundational [00:09:00] mistakes that many brands make is they’re telling their story either as a We were first, or we were founded when, or we’ve got this many employees, or we have this shiny, spectacular product, rather than creating an avenue by which people can see where they fit into that brand’s world.
Right? So I think that that’s a big thing. thing that we try to do. Or where that brand fits
John Kiker: in their world.
Lizzy Bakhaus: Sure, where that brand fits in their world, either or. Seeing what the relationship is, not just a story that’s being touted. I think that that is something that we try to focus on at Medium Giant. I think storytelling in general is a pretty, um, is a pretty obvious how in marketing.
It’s how most marketers market, but I think Medium Giant does it differently by thinking really about how we can create. Meaning in customers lives, be it our customers or our customers customers.
John Kiker: Very nice. So talk about how that manifests itself in terms of a construct, because, um, [00:10:00] the more, the, the, as we scale or as we’ve, as we’ve scaled as an agency, um, you know, there, it’s, it’s nice when there’s some level of a construct and a formula that you can use for what makes a great story.
Obviously it’s going to show up in different ways. Um, it’s going to manifest itself differently. Um, and it, Through a digital experience versus something more experiential versus just something that’s happening on TV So talk about the construct that we’ve sort of created to really frame a frame how a story should work.
Shawn Kruggel: I think it’s interesting that We are will not we’re not the first and we will not be the last ad agency Creative agency to talk about storytelling. Sure, but a lot of times they Impose their model on the storytelling model. Here’s what we do in advertising and that isn’t that isn’t see how that’s like that in stories where I think that one thing I guess a little bit humble that we tried to do is say well, how did great stories get built and then [00:11:00] we’ll We should follow that model.
Stories being much older than ad agencies. So, I think that’s when Lizzie and I really started to get, I like this idea of, um, critical context. What are all the things you gotta set up about a story to make it work? Um, what is the inciting incident? And these are storytelling words from the literary world, not the brand or advertising or, or design world.
So you think about a critical context. What is it that happens that really incites the action in that, in that story? And normally, that thing is conflict. And most of the time, what advertising tries to do, at least what we’re trying to do, is, is either bring to life a conflict that people knew was there but don’t recognize, or create one that they didn’t know existed.
Would be so compelling to them and I’ll just kind of go back to, you know, when, when Lizzie was talking about these two, you know, the consumer and the, and the brands, like they both have a gap that they’re trying to fill and then the, there’s the brands that are trying to fill an experience or develop an [00:12:00] experience gap and there’s consumers that have that, that experience and both of those are, are stories that we hope fit together.
Like Rocky, I like when Rocky says, tells Adrian that the reason that they get along is because they both have gaps. I got gaps, you got gaps and together we fill gaps. And you can pretty much learn everything from Rocky that I’m going to.
John Kiker: I did not have Rocky on my bingo card today, so thank you.
Lizzy Bakhaus: I want to touch on, um, where that, where that story ends, at least in the construct that Medium Giant, or that Sean and I have worked on building up together.
We start with that critical context, like he said, only the things that matter. Because it is easy for a story to grow boring, or weary, or, uh, tiresome. Undifferentiated. Yeah, uninteresting, right? So what is the most critical context you can provide? Getting to that inciting incident, that moment of truth, that tension point, and then Ultimately, achieving what we call an earned ending.
So it’s not just an ending, it’s something that has been earned, or gained, or changed, or pivoted, or something that really [00:13:00] provides the customer with a true benefit. Um, so we love this framework of, of thinking about it in this, the, this set of three. Um, so I just wanted to
Shawn Kruggel: make sure that, you know. And then, and the interesting thing about that is, is if you kind of plotted that out on a graph, that kind of critical content.
Inciting incident day, new mile, whatever, you know, even in a certain context, and then kind of earn ending as, as you get the result or the value, it follows the same. Curve or arc as a story would yeah, and we I think we
John Kiker: and I think from a human lucky on that Yeah, well and from a and from a psychology perspective though, like I know our brains are Attuned to a good story following that same construct.
So, you know, it’s there’s a psychology to it as well
Lizzy Bakhaus: You know, we got to that construct I was walking down the street on the phone with you and you were sitting in your garage when we got to when we figured That out Yeah
Shawn Kruggel: I think I was walking around the garage probably having a nice cold beer.
John Kiker: I was about to say critical context [00:14:00] right there would be good.
Shawn Kruggel: How far you want to dig into that?
John Kiker: Oh my gosh. Oh, that’s great. Um, so talking about those, those inputs that create that critical context or create that inside the incident. I think sometimes people, um, internally on the client side will look at their brand and look at their customers and maybe not.
recognize elements for what they are. Um, in other words, you know, sometimes clients have a pretty good beat on what their story is, and they just want it to help shape it or maybe tighten it up. And a lot of times clients will say. Well, you know, our sales are pretty good, um, we think our customers like us because of this, and we see what they’re doing in the marketplace, and it’s not really following any consistent story arc.
So how do you guys work with clients, and how do we think about sitting down with clients and really helping them to unearth what those gems are?
Lizzy Bakhaus: Oh, it’s a great question. I bet he would say the same thing, or roughly something similar. I think it comes back to purpose. I think it’s about the business’s true purpose.
I think I was [00:15:00] recently listening, um, to a podcast on the idea of telling true stories. And it was really interesting because it was talking about how the best stories are authentic and simple. And we overcomplicate stories or we make them seem feigned in some veil of mistruth to seem more marketing speak.
But the best stories are built on purpose and are authentic and simplistic. And I know that that sounds easy to say, but I think the most important part about being a purpose driven or, um, Rooted in truth organization is it feels real, it looks real. Once you figure out what is the thing that we are really delivering for our customers, what are we actually doing, what are we really providing to the world, what problem, what universal problem are we solving, then that true story, a true story is the best story there is.
John Kiker: I mean, Well, and are we doing it in a way that is authentic to them? Right. In other words, I think there’s a lot of ways to [00:16:00] solve, um, it could be a trust problem, it could be a value, a value perception problem, but a lot of times I think we find clients try to manufacture. Uh, something about themselves to answer that and like, there’s no depth to it.
So maybe it becomes a campaign. Maybe there’s some, some level of sustainability about that, but there’s no, there’s no lifespan. Like it’s a, it’s a thing and then it stops because there’s nothing underlying that’s really driving that, promoting that. That’s really that you can hang it all around, you know, I think sometimes having those conversations with clients is like, you talk about hard truth.
Like that’s a hard conversation to have to say, listen. Maybe it solves this in the short term, but in the long term, like, we need to dig deeper and really, like, to your point, go back to your purpose, like, what did you guys get in this game for? What do you actually, what makes you different than somebody else?
Authentically.
Shawn Kruggel: Yeah. I mean, I think it just goes back to speaking of stories that people find relatable there. I mean, that’s what the hero’s journey or any of that is like, what, what is the story that I find relatable? This is relatively on topic, but not, but if you can [00:17:00] feel, feel it guttural that I’ve had something like that happen, or you can tell me a story where I can almost take the journey with you.
When I was in third grade, you guys probably had this. It was, it was my birthday. And it was my day to bring in the treats. You guys have this when you were kids? I don’t think
John Kiker: we should do that anymore, but yeah.
Shawn Kruggel: Okay. In the 80s, in the 80s they did it. And Sherry Krugel made me, she, What do you want? I want rice crispy treats.
That’s the big winner. And I’m in Mrs. Anderson’s third grade class in, uh, in Michigan and I’m handing these treats out. I’m going up and down the road. And I can clearly tell halfway through there ain’t gonna be enough treats and I’m looking at mrs. Anderson mrs. Anderson is looking at me and I’m sweating bullets because this is my this is your moment to shine in third grade Oh, yeah, either I mean and So she kind of quietly whispers, you know, it break him in half if you break him Yeah, so now I’m breaking him in half and they still aren’t gonna let I mean and I’m mortified And I’m telling you this story to [00:18:00] this day because any kid that’s third grade, you can identify, like, can you imagine, like, the lights are getting hotter, the ceiling’s getting shorter, or, you know, you’re closed in.
I’m screwed on my big day. But if you can relate to that kind of guttural feeling that everybody has that human truth, as Lizzie said, I go back to that, like, Ikea spot with the lamp in the rain. It doesn’t make no sense, it has no feelings, but everybody is like, you know what, I have saved a piece of string that almost fell off the edge of a table, I have felt sorry for an inanimate object.
I mean, those are the types of stories and things that are universal, Lizzie also used that word. So I think that’s what we try to, we try to do. We try to fight a brand challenge and relate it to something human.
John Kiker: Love it. So, um, looking beyond our clients and looking around the industry as, as we’d like to do and like, we, we’d like to share great examples.
Who else is out there that you think, wow, this brand really understands the concept of what makes a great story. What do you see? , [00:19:00]
Shawn Kruggel: the one that comes to mind really quickly for me, and I’ll just say what it is and then I’ll, that I’ll let you out, is the, um, is Heineken’s, you know, the pub museums? Mm-hmm . I mean, end one.
I saw a lot of killer work this year, and I won’t, I mean, I’m probably gonna mention a lot of the same work and a lot of other people would. That’s why it’s, that’s why it’s great. But that one worked on so many levels for, for me, because it isn’t just about the puppet, it isn’t just about the camaraderie there.
It isn’t just about the hist. I mean, man, did they. Layer that in and have an idea in such a human global Save something for you know Posterity for humanity that’s got patina and richness to it. That wasn’t just about selling in again, right? Man, did that make that speaking of purpose they they built on theirs, you know in a way that was a true human In unesco.
Okay. Global need. Um, so I, I I, I don’t know if that answered your question, but there, that’s an [00:20:00] example of a, I think a story that took on an even higher purpose.
Lizzy Bakhaus: I love it. I heard someone say the other day, I hate that. I can’t remember who it was. I was listening to a different podcast. They mentioned that.
All, all companies are media companies and once a company realizes that every company is a media company and they start acting and thinking that way, then they have a much better handle on storytelling. And so when I think of a brand that first understood that and has continued to sustain that incredible storytelling connection, for me, it’s Red Bull.
Um, building a media house and, and structuring their storytelling method to not be telling you what, you know, why we give you wings. Well, they don’t say that anymore because they got, they got big trouble for saying they give you wings. Um, but they, they found a way to actually interact with customers in real life, in their true.
Native enthused [00:21:00] environments where people are feeling the highs of action sports and feeling the true, like, authentic joy that comes from their passions or the passions of the, of the, of the riders or snowboarders that they love being right there. in that space with them and, and, and taking and owning that moment.
So to me, they kind of changed the way that storytelling went from, we are telling a story to you too. We are just here to help your story be told. Um, so I love Red Bull for that.
John Kiker: I think, um, it was Lee Clow, uh, former TWA CEO. Great. You’d said everything is media.
Lizzy Bakhaus: Yes. Yes. Thank you so much.
John Kiker: It’s like, you know, whatever gets in the way between you.
As a consumer and the product you want to buy that’s trying to get you to buy that, it’s media. It could be packaging, it could be the store, it could be an experience.
Shawn Kruggel: It kind of reminds me of the kind of Axe. Ads, that was a humankind kind of, kind of deal where it’s like, you know, and I think, I think ultimately that was, that was in, it was kind of interesting at the time, but now I think that [00:22:00] is pervasive across all of everything that, that we do.
I mean, if you aren’t building some type of, um, uh, total consumer experience. Then you’re just making advertising and it’s not a thing.
Lizzy Bakhaus: I, I, I will add to what you’re saying. I think there’s something really noteworthy around. We have this structure for storytelling, right? And we can tell people, go tell a true, honest story.
But I think what makes The magic happen in an advertisement is telling a true story or telling a story that’s impactful to a customer, but doing it with intrigue. And I think that’s where you meet people like Sean or you meet other creatives or strategists or people that are just innately talented or they have this spark.
So I won’t say it’s easy. This whole storytelling idea, we can talk about frameworks and structure. The idea of being able to create intrigue, that to me is the [00:23:00] magic that comes after the brief, right? Finding that creative solution, and I can think of many, um, campaigns or identity projects we’ve worked on where we’ve built a true story, but the veil or the cloak on it was so intriguing that it made it More meaningful or more resonant to a customer.
So, I, I, I, I don’t want to make it sound like it’s easy. It’s not.
Shawn Kruggel: Yeah, and I think that it’s interesting, like, for me, having kind of come from the strategy world, not the, not necessarily the creative track or ad school or this or that, like, I very, I, I look at advertising shocking, shockingly less than people ask me about.
Like, my wife or friends or people and everything is like, what do you think about this ad or what do you think about the Super Bowl ads? And I, I pay it, I pay attention to it, but. Like, I would rather, I would rather watch or listen to, like, The Moth. Like, than I would, like, pay attention to, like, the top ads of the week.
And I’m, you [00:24:00] know, I’m on the drum and all the same stuff you guys are on, but, Um, those are, those are rarely where sources of inspiration come from. At least for the, at least for the team, at least for me. Very cool. So,
John Kiker: let’s juxtapose this. storytelling and the need for deep creative thinking with what we see from not just our clients, but really the industry.
And that is a push for how do we scale? How do we automate? How do we use technology on our behalf? And how do we find that balance between an algorithm writing a story because of data points that we insert? An algorithm telling us where and when to go by for efficiency sake, which has a very meaningful, important application, but how do we not lose our sense of story with all of these different avenues that in many ways we turn over purpose.
to non human entities to help us generate and [00:25:00] proliferate.
Lizzy Bakhaus: Great, great question. I actually have been thinking a lot about this. Wait, you have something. Go ahead. I’m slapping because I’m like, you know what? I know he’s going to ask us about AI. And
Shawn Kruggel: I’m such like a tactile, like I keep, I’m the person that keeps the books after I read.
I’d look so like, lewd that way, but I knew you were going to ask me. So I do have, I thought about it for a second was thinking, you know, like right now, from the, from a creative team standpoint, we use AI as an, an, a helper, an ancillary kind of helper tool, but I think. From a, we’re moving into the phase where now it’s going to be more of a development tool.
And then eventually we’ll get to the point where, uh, you know, we’re pitting AI platforms against each other. You know, for like, we’re more like puppet masters of different AI platforms. And now let’s set up the right constructs to have these five compete against these five for ideas. And then we’ll take, so I think [00:26:00] there’ll be more of a I think people are nervous that they’ll be less of a part to play because they’ll be doing everything.
And I’m wondering if we use the platforms against each other like chess pieces. I mean, but right now I think we’re still kind of in that early stage of How do we use it? Where’s fair to use it? Where do I not want to use it? Because I, I want to, I mean, there is a little bit of ego to, you know, egoism in the creative.
I want to own it. I want the team to own it. I want the idea to be original. I don’t want, I don’t, I’m the last person that wants someone to find out that part of it came from here. But I think we’re using it as like an add on, a bolt on. Get us, what if I type in this word and it’ll give me two adjectives that make me feel something else, rather than, I want to use it for, for an idea itself.
So I don’t know. I think that’s kind of the stages we’re in, or at least sounds like the stages we’re moving in with, with something like that.
John Kiker: What do you think, Lizzie?
Lizzy Bakhaus: Oh yeah, I’ll maybe answer more of the first part of the question was around, which is around like. How do you, with so many tools at our disposal, how do we choose [00:27:00] what to use?
I feel like I got to a point a couple years ago where people ask me for marketing advice all the time. And they ask me like, all right, if you could just tell me one thing, what is the secret of advertising? And so I recently feel like I’ve gotten to a pretty. Pithy response on that, that I can explain pretty well what storytelling is, but marketing too, and I think it boils down to two things.
I think it boils down to reach and resonance, and if you can find a way to look at all the tools at your disposal, whether you’re a startup, whether you’re a high functioning marketing team, and you can look at the tools that you use for reach, and you look at the tools that you use for resonance, and figure out where your shortcomings are.
Resonance and marketing. In my opinion, is ensuring that the message that we’re putting out to this audience or this consumer resonates with them matters to them. That’s definitely in the Lizzie Shawn department, right? And there’s other folks on on my team, on the strategy team and our [00:28:00] media team that are much closer to this, this concept of tactical reach, right?
And so I think if you have this amazing story, and let’s just go back to the Rice Krispies, let’s say that story that just Resonates, right? It resonates, right? That story, that story is a good story, but it’s not reaching the right person. Then things are, things are imbalanced and it doesn’t matter if it’s a resonant story because it doesn’t reach the right target and the same goes both ways.
So I’d say if I was to look at my tech stack or the tools that I have at my disposal or the ones that I want to take off the budget or I want to add to the budget, I would look at am I reaching the right target and am I resonating with the right target and of course you need to make sure That you know who your target is first, um, which is a different story, different
Shawn Kruggel: topic.
When you say resonance, I, I like that because it makes me feel like from a creative standpoint, I’m, you know, we’re, we’re just trying to make people feel it first and own it [00:29:00] second. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that’s the creative that does really well. It’s like if they can feel it in their bones and then there’s a part of it or all of it or that then subsequently they can own.
Then that wins. I, I, this is not a, this is not really an advertising thing. So, but I love like Charlie XCX this here, like her album brat. Like, yes, it was an album, but it became like a language. It became like a feeling it became like, and like adapted, adopted. Fast. I just feel like that was something that people could feel and then they could, then ultimately they adopt it.
Yeah. So I, I love stuff. I know that’s not necessarily traditional what we’re talking about with traditional advertising, but in my
John Kiker: mind it is. People do feel it and they adopt. I mean, whether it’s lexicon, like, you know, what some of the old classic Budweiser stuff used to do. I mean, there’s, there’s a lot of that.
If you’re doing it right, you resonate to the point to where it gets adopted.
Shawn Kruggel: Yeah, sure. So I [00:30:00] loved, I loved that whole. Um, everything around that album and, and the way that, that her kind of following took that.
John Kiker: So, all right. Speaking of topical things, um, I’m asked the same question two different ways.
What stories do we have in overabundance? If you look around our industry and around marketing, like what are your, just like, Oh my God, not another one of this. What are we seeing? Hmm.
Lizzy Bakhaus: Um, I would probably say non differentiated stories, stories that are just taking up space and filling air. And I’m not talking about performance marketing tools that are telling you about a very cost associated opportunity to book with this airline today.
I’m talking about brands that are just speaking in a, in, in vague marketing jargon, but not saying truly the place that they have in brands lives. So I think those are stories that are maybe they’re not stories. They’re just, it’s advertising that’s an abundance
John Kiker: points that [00:31:00] are sort of organized into a construct of some kind.
Lizzy Bakhaus: Yes. And it’s not real storytelling to me. So
John Kiker: going back to the previous question, it makes you wonder sometimes some of the messages you’re seeing is like, where’s that? Is that, is that almost algorithmic? I will rhythmically generate it.
Lizzy Bakhaus: Yeah. Was that, was this ad meant for me?
John Kiker: Because, or, or maybe it is meant for you, but it’s just not organized into a story, right?
It’s just a bunch of set of freaking data points that don’t really. Make sense or don’t really aren’t compelling in and of themselves, right, but could be organized Could be organized into something more more meaningful, but just weren’t
Lizzy Bakhaus: right even if you just simply simplify it down to the funnel I think that those are the things I I notice standout ads that are exceptional and intriguing and meaningful And I notice ads that seem like they showed up at my life at the wrong time I notice when there’s imperfections in the way a brand who is as powerful as a United Airlines, for example, who has a massive marketing team with a very strong performance marketing budget.
And I see things and I and I know where I [00:32:00] fit in their funnel. And I’m not getting the ad that feels like it’s going to convince me to actually take action at the right time. And so I think my expectations are so high, and probably because of my current role. But also because of the way that all of our expectations have changed, even when we get an advertisement on Instagram that we don’t feel like really fits our mold, we’re like, what is this?
I mean, we’ve just, the bar is so high now I think for performance advertising and all of the, you know, all of the different channels and avenues within which we’re experiencing ads. We have such high expectations. So.
Shawn Kruggel: I think it’s like, I guess it’s like the most popular one is the one I think it’s overused is like the traditional kind of hero’s journey.
Like Luke Skywalker. So there’s these books. I don’t know if you’ve read them. This will, I mean, this will be a little nerdy. But they’re called From Another Point of View. And they have one for, uh, A New Hope and, uh, Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi. And they’re [00:33:00] all stories based on characters that are minor bit parts in the movie.
And the stories are real short. They’re like short stories. So it’s like, uh, you know, when, you know, when R2 D2 gets picked for the first time, well another R2 unit blows, he’s got a bad motivator. Uncle Owen, remember that? Well, it’ll be a whole story about what happened to the robot that had the bad motivator.
Now, that’s wicked because he’s not the hero. He’s not the, but he’s no less a huge part of that movie for people that are loyalists to that genre, that thing. And it’s like, but he’s not focused on. He’s not, he’s left behind in the story. Uh, and they’ve got whole books of these, these things and like my 16 year old Knight ever since he’s been, I don’t know, probably 10, like can’t wait for the next one of these to come out because they’re like, you know that you, you have like a connection to that character, but you don’t know anything about it.
And I think so many of our, so many brands audiences have like the big audience and clearly. Money tells you [00:34:00] that’s where to put money, but there’s, you know, I think a lot of these brands, you know, are starting to have, um, you know, there’s still opportunity, I guess, or I should say, for what have historically been the role players, or the background, or the scenery, to, to be the lead, uh, the, the lead character.
I’ll give you an example, like, we work with Ulster County, New York, and typically our, our audience is, Exactly who you would think. They are the outdoor enthusiasts from Manhattan that go to Ulster County to ski and hike and rail trail and this and that. And we had the opportunity to work on an accessibility project for them.
So, you know, from the OO onset it was like, well, we have our audience and then we’re gonna do this accessibility campaign. Well, what the feelings and thoughts and re same reason that people, um, that have accessibility needs. Well, why, why isn’t that the lead story that could get people that don’t necessarily have those exact needs?
It’s just kind of flipping the script a little bit, um, and telling the same, telling the all star [00:35:00] story from, but from a different point of view, uh, much like the Star Wars thing. So I, I think there’s a lot of opportunity clearly there for, for that, um, I don’t know, finding interesting groups of people like the Liquid Death and Elf.
Corpse paint thing. I mean, being kind of a metalhead. I love, I love stuff like that. I look with
John Kiker: deaf, unexpected partners. Right. But the
Shawn Kruggel: right.
John Kiker: I never expected, but when you see it and you’re like, Oh my God, that’s,
Shawn Kruggel: yeah. Uh, but right. But that, that thing would just was like, here’s two kind of untolds and how do we anyway?
I like,
Lizzy Bakhaus: I think it’s interesting. You bring up the star Wars example because You’re talking about ways that Disney has decided, in their new ownership of Star Wars, to extend an already extremely extended story. And I think when we talk about storytelling, it doesn’t have to be this one grand a ha of a story, it can be a concept of a story that you can fulfill in so many different ways.
Sounds
John Kiker: like an
Lizzy Bakhaus: ecosystem, right? Right. Completely. And [00:36:00] I think that Disney thinking, Hey, well, Star Wars is never going to end, right? I mean, that’s kind of the whole idea, what you just explained. I didn’t know they were doing that. But that idea that we’re going to keep creating these, these many stories, these micro moments of connection with our customer base is it’s genius.
Like the story never ends. So I think Disney. Obviously nails that in general.
Shawn Kruggel: So the ecosystem thing is, I think, right too. It’s like, I, I don’t know what it was, but like the first book, I don’t know if it’s like a hundred years of solitude or whatever, when you open it up. And the first thing they show you on the inside page is like the family tree.
Cause the book is so intricate with, say, is that the right, if I get that right with this, so many characters that you’re literally like, the first thing I want to show you is this ecosystem is massive. And you can imagine all the stories are going to object with this. So they kind of want to, they kind of want to show you that upfront so you don’t get over, or you kind of.
John Kiker: Yeah. I have a general saying. And there are brands out there, like, I think Geico is a good example that understands how to create an ecosystem. And sometimes, and sometimes there are disparate parts, like, [00:37:00] you know, Caveman has nothing to do with Gecko, but in other times they start to cross over and like, it’s all in the same family and you can see one commercial or you can see three commercials and understand how well.
I think the brands that understand how to build that ecosystem, and certainly Geico has a budget, not every brand has that luxury of creating that kind of a budget, but how do you think about creating that space to, um, both get recognition, but also have flexibility, whether it’s new products, new markets, new messages, and I think that’s really the magic of understanding how to create stories in today’s world, which are multifaceted, multi, multi, multi plane, multi platform, um, yeah.
Um, you know, can come to life in one of a million ways. And I think that’s what’s most exciting for us as we look at our, um, at our current clients and where we’re trying to go is how do we, how do we really help them think that through on a multi plane basis? I don’t think everybody has that nailed down yet.
Lizzy Bakhaus: Yeah. It’s a tough thing to nail. I think that tactics or, [00:38:00] you know, reasons to believe whatever you want to call it, um, people, but stories motivate people. I think that those are the things that sometimes get confused in the, in the, in the process of storytelling is figuring out what really needs to lead.
And I think when you can build a story, it’s so much more impactful because it’s actually going to motivate a change. And so I think that’s, as you talk about that ecosystem and the framework, I think. Many brands who know who they are, and they have a true story to tell, and they’ve taken time to position the brand and know exactly what they’re all about.
Those are the ones that can more easily build the ecosystem that you’re talking about. All these different ways to tell our story here, or there, or in earned media, or paid media. That’s
Shawn Kruggel: where the, the, you would ask the, where, how is the industry evolving? I mean, the number of disciplines within our industry, I mean.
I don’t even know what they are, but I mean, what that says to me is even in certain [00:39:00] capacities that there is a need for different type of storytellers on a grand scale, on a microscopic scale. So, you know, there used to be what, five, you’re in the account management part, you’re in the strategy part, you’re in the media part, you’re in analytics, I mean, maybe there were seven.
Now there’s, I mean, so there’s been a proliferation of disciplines to fulfill the need on the number of platforms and assets. Now, can be and have to be told to reach those, you know, multiple, you know, bajillions of audiences you talked about earlier.
John Kiker: 100%. So, on that note, let’s talk about what we see the next, let’s just say five years, because 10 years is kind of crazy.
Like nobody knows what that, what the F is going to happen in 10 years, but let’s just talk about the next five years for us. Like, I mean, like the rate of change, uh, is, is only accelerating. So how do you see storytelling evolving
Lizzy Bakhaus: in the advertising landscape in general
John Kiker: or in
Shawn Kruggel: general? Well, general, but yeah.
I think that the whole industry is moving in a way that there’s like a few things [00:40:00] that are moving differently. Um, the, the way, the way that advertising or stories are delivered is different. The speed. At which there are, are, are clients and clients, we would love to have the speed at which they expect stories to be delivered.
The amount of content that needs to be developed for those, um, and the channels that we put them are all proliferating all at the same time and happen. So it’s like not even. It’s not like advertised, or it used to be. One campaign could kind of last you for the year. Here are the five channels that you have.
So for us, I think it’s, it’s more about how do we have like, build that universe that you said, and have multiple stories that come from the same purpose, that are built on truths, that resonate with people. The jiggle
John Kiker: test that you can
Shawn Kruggel: iterate. That’s right, and that we’re not, and, and even from a spend perspective, we’re not gonna put all, all our eggs in, in one basket per se, because It’ll be gone [00:41:00] tomorrow.
There’s not that same kind of longevity. Very
John Kiker: ephemeral.
Shawn Kruggel: Yeah, for sure. So we’ve got to be thinking of ideas that are faster, of messages that are quicker, of emotional stories we can tell that don’t That are a hundred years that are faster that are don’t take six months to create Oh exactly, and I think so for in increasingly in the next five years.
That’s what we will have to continue to get better at and I think when you think of you know, just the amount of Content being created by individuals and and we’re you know, we’re we’re competing with that I think of this band Mandalay Bay. Have you heard of Mandalay Bay? It’s like a Boyfriend, girlfriend or sister, brother, and they create their, I mean, they are wildly successful and maybe sort of more so than their music, but they, they put this content out so quickly and it’s so compelling to watch and you’re not even sure every time what the real purpose for everything is, but it’s kind of part, part of a grander narrative, right?
And I think all [00:42:00] our brands are kind of looking for that and hopefully the clients will be continually more forgiving in the sense that everything isn’t a silver bullet. Um, I, I just think that that’s five year, kind of five years, like how we got to continue to think.
Lizzy Bakhaus: I love it. I think very similarly, but in addition, you know, it feels like, so this is a, this is a really wonderful time of year, obviously because of the holidays, but also because all of the trends reports are coming out and you know me, I love a good trends report.
And so I think the things that I’ve started to gather and I’m still kind of gathering all of the trends reports and hypotheses about what’s to come, at least in the next year. And something that I’ve seen a lot of is this mood move, um, by a large population of consumers towards being more empathetic and needing more emotional, um, experiences with brands, which I think is really interesting.
Moving to a much more empathetic space, I think we’ve seen Gen Z.
John Kiker: We need to be careful because you can be, as a brand, really [00:43:00] heavy handed and just like, no, that’s not And
Lizzy Bakhaus: totally miss the mark.
John Kiker: Exactly.
Lizzy Bakhaus: Totally. So, I think Gen Z is definitely pushing us in that space. I would say much more tactically, the power of influencers is growing at an insane rate.
Sane, right? And I think in the next few years you will be, it will be rare to purchase something without an influencer code attached to it. So for the most part, I think many people are finding brands or products through influencers, and if they’re not, they’ve seen something from an influencer. That has cookie tagged in their system or deep linked, and they’re buying it on behalf of an influencer without even realizing it.
So I think that’s a big factor. I think social will continue to grow in a really crazy rate and the way that we experience ads on social will continue to get smarter. I think ads, even just TV ads, CTV ads are going far more interactive. I’ve got options for which ads I’m watching now. I mean, I can just continue to see that expanding in such an amazing way.
But I think [00:44:00] Most hopefully, um, I’m excited about advertising being acknowledged and honored in the way that business consultants are. I think it’s continued to grow kind of an, as an industry, more in that space of being kind of key consultants that many businesses go to consult with about major decisions for the headway of the business.
And so I think that’s great to see that. Hopefully, um, salary and pay starts to lift in this category in this industry, too, because I think oftentimes while maybe advertising isn’t working as crazy of hours as I feel like we used to when I was younger, I feel like the the industry is definitely getting more acknowledged and acclaimed in ways that big four consulting firms are.
I
John Kiker: think what’s what’s interesting about that point is for all of the Challenges and opportunities and headwinds and tailwinds that [00:45:00] technology and automation give us. That, if we play our cards right as an industry and as an agency, a lot of that stuff It used to be, used to be more heavily associated with advertising and with agencies like, oh, they’re, you know, they’re, they’re so mired in production.
They don’t, you know, I don’t necessarily get the strategic thinking. Well, now that that part is being commoditized and sort of devalue from an agency perspective, whether it’s a client in housing or whether it’s just, you know, that’s just more of a commodity. I think the return to the table of where advertising agencies were.
In terms of strategic partners, 30, 40 years ago is actually a really interesting opportunity because if we’re doing our jobs right, you know, we’re here to call clients on their bullshit. We’re here to call, you know, clients and, and, and, and to tell truths and to help them uncover stories that people are going to care about because we know that the tenure of a CMO is shorter than it’s, than it’s ever been.
We know that the tolerance that companies have [00:46:00] for loss is as little as it’s ever been. And. The opportunity for us to be more respected and valued to your point, Lizzie, at that consultant level with an eye for creative, I think is a really, really big thing for us. I’m, I’m, I’m super excited about it. But, um, anyway, guys, this has been an awesome conversation.
Uh, really appreciate you guys, uh, lending, uh, lending your time and your thoughts. And hopefully everybody got a little something out of this in terms of, uh, Uh, the, the, the people behind the, the curtains and, uh, the crazy magic that we make. But, uh, thank y’all. It’s been great. Yeah, thank
Shawn Kruggel: you. Awesome. And remember It’s like, we should have some fun
John Kiker: and rice krispies.
Yes. Yeah. And, and bring it and mama Krugel, please cook it up rice krispies next
Lizzy Bakhaus: time for the whole class. Please. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.
John Kiker: Giant Stories is a production of Medium Giant and our parent company, the Dallas News Corporation. Interested in learning more about how your brand’s story can be better told and sold?
Visit [00:47:00] mediumgiant. co or send an email to hello at mediumgiant. co
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